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I have Lived In the Monster: A Report From the Abyss by Ressler, R. and Shachtman, T. (1997)

‘Interview with a Cannibal: Jeffrey Dahmer, Part 2' [pp 119-141]

The first day Ressler spent interviewing Dahmer was outlined in Part 1, and the following notes are taken from Ressler’s return to complete the 1992 interview on the second day.

Click here for notes on 'Interview with a Cannibal: Jeffrey Dahmer' Part 1 [pp96-117]

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Ressler’s intention for the next round of interviews was to explore the role that fantasy had played in Dahmer's crimes. (p119)

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Growing Sense of Omnipotence , Pride in Workmanship and Removal from Humanity of Victim

Ressler observes that it is common for a serial killer to gather confidence and begin to feel a sense of invincibility, especially if they feel they have managed to evade or de-fraud law enforcement. It is often this growing sense of omnipotence that leads to a serial killer killing for a long period of time, but also this overconfidence which often leads to the perpetrator making foolish errors. [p120]

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Ressler: And how soon did you dismember and dispose of the body?

Dahmer: The next day.

Ressler: And how long did that take?

Dahmer: About two hours.

Ressler: Is that all?

Dahmer: I'd become good at it. Always a messy job. Worked quickly.

Ressler: Always in a bathtub?

Dahmer: Right.

Ressler: [...] And you never clogged it?

Dahmer: No, I never did clog it. (p121)

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Ressler adds as an aside that it would be common in such cases for law enforcement, having observed such decisive dissections, to conclude that they are looking for a person in the medical profession, or possibly a professional butcher. In reality, however:

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'[...]When the killer has removed himself from the horror of his crime and the humanity of his victims, he is able to dismember without the emotional baggage that a normal person would carry with him in the process of, say, cutting off a person's arm. When we cut of a chicken's leg in the process of preparing our dinner, we don't think of the ramifications of the act. So, serial killers who have reached the point of dehumanising their victims can dismember them in that same disinterested way.' [pp121-2)]

Further Case Studies: Dennis Nilsen (UK), Robert Berdella (US)

Ressler notes that both Nilsen and Berdella would 'dispose' of their victims in a similar manner. (p122)

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On Placing the Victim’s Bodies in Specific Poses

[Dahmer] That was just to accentuate their physiques. [Before and after death, right?] Right.

[Now, what did that mean to you?] It was just a way to exercise control, and to make them look the way I wanted them to. [Keeping those photos, then, was important to you.]

I’d use them to masturbate. [p119]

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Torture and Dehumanisation of Victims

Ressler: Were any of these kids tortured?

Dahmer: Never. Never.

Ressler: It was always the eliminating of consciousness through drugs, and eventually death-?

Dahmer: I wanted to make it as painless as possible.

Ressler: When did most of the sexual activities occur?

Dahmer: After drugging.

Ressler: Do you think it was realistic, to keep them in that state?

Dahmer: Not drugged, no. That's why I started drilling. 'Cause drugging wasn't working.

Ressler: Did you have any problem with hurting [...] when they were conscious [...]?

Dahmer: That's why I couldn't go through with it, with [redacted name].

Ressler: With the hammer?

Dahmer: With the mallet.

Ressler: Did you hit him hard?

Dahmer: Yeah. I hit him hard.

Ressler: But it didn't render him unconscious?

Dahmer: No. And he ended up calling the police. But they didn't believe him. And he was a couple of miles from my place before I carried him back. No. I just talked him down. I had the knife with me, but I couldn't bring myself to use it.

(pp122-3)

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The Infamous John Wayne Gacy

Ressler asked Dahmer if he was aware of Gacy, following the, at that time, recent news reports about his many killings. Dahmer reported that he was familiar with Gacy from the news, but he, Dahmer, had already murdered several people before ever hearing of Gacy.

Ressler reports being 'unsure whether or not he was lying, because killers often read about the crimes of others, taking from these both satisfaction that others have acted in that manner, and sometimes learning techniques as well.' [p122]

The Eroticism of Cannibalising Victims

Dahmer reported that the first time he bit a victim had been ‘the first one on Twenty-Sixth Street' [after moving out of his grandmother's house to live alone: see also Part 1. linked above].

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Ressler: Well, could you tell me about that?

Dahmer: Well, after he was dead, I did bite the neck.

Ressler: Just once?

Dahmer: Hard.

Ressler: [...] And what was behind that, the motivation?

Dahmer: Uh, perverse sexual practice.

Ressler: And did you repeat that?

Dahmer: No. [...] Except for the eating.

Ressler: And what was behind that?

Dahmer: Just the feeling of making him part of me.

Ressler: Where did that come from? Did you read about it somewhere?

Dahmer: No, it was internal. Oh, I may have read about cannibalism somewhere, but it didn't - it was just another step. Escalation.

Ressler: [...] How did that come about?

Dahmer: During dismemberment. Saved the heart. The biceps. Decided to put - cut 'em into small pieces, washed 'em off, put it in clear plastic freezer bags, and put 'em into my storage freezer, just as an escalation, trying something new to satisfy. And I would cook it, and then look at the picture and masturbate.

Ressler: Afterwards? Did that have any sort of positive effect, that ritual?

Dahmer: Mmhmm. Made it feel like they were more a part of me. Sexually stimulating. (p123)

Later, Dahmer admits to drinking the blood of one of his victims out of "curiosity", but had neither enjoyed the experience, nor found it stimulating: '[...]And [Dahmer’s] criterion for continuing any practice, was finding that it excited him.' [p129]

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Victim Selection and Stated Sexual Preferences

In what Ressler's termed Dahmer's 'scale', the fantasy lover described above was at the pinnacle.

Although less preferable, Dahmer still considered it somewhat desirable to keep a (living) 'zombie'.

Failing this, the next most preferable option would be "what I'd been doing." [Hunting men in bars and bring them home to murder.]

[And failing this? Homosexual partners, heterosexual partners, a partner, perhaps even just pornography?] "Nothing."[...] "Celibacy, no sexual activity at all." [p138-9]

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Ressler wryly explains that Dahmer was keen to clear up certain misconceptions during his interview, particularly in relation to his sexual preference, which he insisted was 'fully adult males [about his own age]', quoting Dahmer thus :

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Dahmer: That's the thing, everybody thinks it's racial, but they were all different. The first one was white. The second on was American Indian. The third was Hispanic. The fourth was mulatto. The only reason I picked blacks was because there were a lot of 'em in the gay bars...

[Dahmer's neighbourhood on Twenty-Sixth had been predominantly black and Hispanic residents. He qualifies:]

If I could have picked up a white, good-looking guy, I would have taken them back [to the apartment]. But I never did. Seven of them were black, of the seventeen.

Ressler: So it was an area thing, not - ?

Dahmer: Yeah. I hope I can get that cleared up

Ressler: Have [black men] hassled [you] in the jail about that?

Dahmer: Yeah. They think it's …a racial thing.

(pp124-5)

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Ressler later noted that the people Dahmer picked up from public places were not always homosexual.

[Dahmer] said that it hadn't mattered, because he was looking for physique, and in any case, the sexual activities he performed were not consensual, and took place while the victim was unconscious, or dead.

At the malls, Dahmer reported roughly one third of the people he invited to come back to his apartment would accept, whereas in gay bars this proportion was closer to two thirds. [pp133-4]

"I would have liked to have [...] a well-developed white guy, compliant to my wishes. I would have preferred to have him alive and permanently staying with me."

[Would the fantasy lover have a job in the world outside of Dahmer's apartment?]

"Just there for me." [p138]

Later in the chapter, Ressler observes 'how, in the mind of the killer, the event seems at least partially precipitated by the actions of the victim - that the death is at least partially the fault of the victim.'

Ressler expounds:

Dahmer knew precisely where and under what circumstances he had met each victim, and had not forgotten their names, or descriptions. The most important psychological point was that he described as "planned" those murders where he went trawling for a victim, and "spontaneous" as those where he more or less accidentally met someone - although he made his pickups in places where such arrangements are often done, and therefore had a reasonable expectation that a pickup might occur. (pp135-7)

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Ability to Deceive Onlookers

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Ressler: When the Apartment Manager came in - several occasions, did he not? The smell? How did that go?

Dahmer: I'd either blame it on the freezer or the fish tank.

Ressler: The fish tank? Was that plausible?

Dahmer: I didn't think it was, but he seemed to believe it. [p127]

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Keeping 'Souvenirs'

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Ressler noted that although it was common for serial killers to keep souvenirs or mementos from the victim, Dahmer ‘had done that to a point far beyond that reached by most other killers’. [p119]

Apart from a couple of skulls he had destroyed early on ('After an hour at 120 degree I heard this popping noise. Opened the door, and the bones were all in flakes') Dahmer reported saving all of his victim's skulls. (‘And there were two complete skeletons.') [p127]

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Staging the Power Centre / Temple [see also: Part 1]

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Ressler: What was the idea of the lights?

Dahmer: Those were blue globe lights. I turned the top light off, so you'd have an eerie, dark feeling to the setting - just for the effect.

Ressler: That would have been some sight!

Dahmer: Like in the Jedi movies.

Ressler: The spray-painting of skulls. What was behind that?

Dahmer: To give them a more uniform look. After [some time] some of them wouldn't be as white as others, and it was just an artificial look, something like for a commercial. [p128]

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Later, Dahmer explained that he had fantasised about putting together a complete skeleton, putting in hooks and eyes to reassemble the bones. Ressler asked Dahmer why he didn't just try to purchase an old medical anatomy skeleton second hand, but Dahmer explained that the result 'wouldn't be a remembrance - it would be - it would be a stranger.' [p131]

When Ressler enquires as to the purpose of the power centre, Dahmer responded:

I would have tried to develop some kind of incantation or ritual, to tap into power, spiritual power. At that time, I thought that kind of thing might be possible, but I didn't know. [What does he think of 'the whole idea' now?]

Ridiculous. That's become obvious. [p133]

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The Role of Intoxication

Ressler notes that alcohol or drugs rarely ever ‘cause' someone to commit murderous acts, although they are powerful disinhibitors: He adds, sardonically, that questioning offenders about their crimes, in the context of intoxication, '...often enables [a murderer] to speak more readily about the deadly deeds.' [pp129-30]

When asked if he thought 'booze had been a problem’ for him, Dahmer responded:

It has. It was my way of handling the home life. The divorce. And the hits. I drank to blot out the memory. It worked for a while.

And it worked even better in the Army.

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He reported having been drinking (but not drunk), when he trapped each of his victims. He would continue to drink beer 'throughout the evening', making sure his freezer was well-stocked with beer before any killing or dismemberment took place.

Ressler: So you were keeping yourself in a kind of, in a semi - ?

Dahmer: ...Lubricated state.

Ressler: Did you feel like that was necessary?

Dahmer: It seemed to make it easier. [p130]

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The Various Levels of Eroticism of Dissection, Necrophilia and Dismemberment

[Continuing from previous exchange]

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Ressler: Did you receive gratification from the actual cutting?

Dahmer: At first I did, but it got to be routine.

Ressler: And the sexual activity after death?

Dahmer: Pleasurable.

Ressler: What about doing the cutting up?

Dahmer: It wasn't as pleasurable as having them whole. [p130]

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Disconnection from Morality and Reality

Dahmer agreed that following his first murder, of the young hitchhiker, when Dahmer was 18, he had known what he had done was wrong. According to Dahmer, the murder had been "reality" (even though, Ressler observes, it had 'meshed with fantasy') and the experience had "scared the hell out of [him]."

Dahmer noted he had been "depressed" preceding the first murder, which had occurred several months following the breakup of his family. Dahmer said his sense of wrong-doing was part of the reason he didn't kill again for the following eight years.

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Ressler: Did you always, right up to the last, know that this was definitely wrong?

Dahmer: Oh yeah.

Ressler: Did you ever reach a point where you said to yourself, 'this is absolutely crazy'?

Dahmer: Getting out of control? Yeah. At the point where I started doing the drilling. That was the twelfth, or something like that.

Ressler: At that point you knew you were - ?

Dahmer: Getting to be too much.

Ressler: Losing it?

Dahmer: Yeah.

Ressler: But did you say to yourself, 'I'm not going to do this again'?

Dahmer: No. I wanted to try to use it to get that zombie technique.

[Questioned further about why dominance and control over another person was so consuming for him]

(Long pause) It would make life more attractive, or fulfilling.

Ressler: OK, but it's power and control - out of control. Y'know what I mean? D'you realise today that wasn't realistic?

Dahmer: Now I do.

Ressler: Did you ever reach a point of self-doubt? [...]

Dahmer: It seemed like that, after the drilling technique started. But before that, no.

Ressler: Did you feel that [...] you were going to be caught?

Dahmer: No, I still thought I could avoid detection. It was after losing my job that the dominoes started to fall.

Ressler: That was not much before your arrest?

Dahmer: Maybe a month. (pp131-2)

Referring to his 8-year hiatus from killing, Dahmer explained:

“[Celibacy] was the state I was trying to get myself into, during those two years when I was going to church with Gramma.”

[When these killings were going on, did you feel justified / like you had the right to do the killings?]

I always tried not to get to know the person too well. Made it seem like it was an inanimate object. Depersonalised them. But I always knew it was not the right thing to do. I had feelings of guilt. [p139]

What Caused the Eight-Year Hiatus from Killing to End?

Dahmer explained that he had 'given up trying to resist the [?homosexual] desires, but I was just [...] bringing 'em back [to the house he shared with his grandmother, and] having a night of sex with them. There was no violence in my thoughts at all.' [p134]

After awakening to find his second victim dead on the bed next to him in a room in the Ambassador Hotel [see Part 1] Dahmer reported finding it 'frightening' (as opposed to enjoyable), adding that this second victim following his hiatus had been 'totally unplanned, it was a total surprise to me that it happened.' [pp134-5]

Ressler remarked upon the gap between Dahmer's second and third victims being much shorter, just two months following the second killing. Dahmer's explanation is almost incidental:

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I hadn't been planning on meeting anyone, but he just happened to be there at the bus stop. And I didn't even bother going to the bars that night. I was planning on going out to the bars, and doing some drinking. [...] The plan was just drinking, and going home. They had a striptease act. [Ressler asks whether ending up at Dahmer's grandmother's was 'just a chain of events?'] Yeah. We got undressed. Just laid around. Body rubs. Masturbated. And I, uh, found him attractive enough that I wanted to keep him. So I just made him the drink, and that was that. [p135]

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Ressler’s Observations at the Conclusion of the 1992 Interview

As they parted, Ressler told Dahmer to take care of himself, and that he smoked too much. Dahmer replied dryly that perhaps he would get cancer and die of it, and that would solve everybody's problem of what to do with him.

As the interview ended, Dahmer agreed to meet again with Ressler, once his court trial was over, and to participate in future research. [p139]

Ressler's conclusion about Dahmer are reproduced in full below:

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"It was clear to me from the interview that Dahmer would have to be incarcerated for the remainder of his life, but that the more appropriate setting for holding him away from society would be a mental hospital and not a prison. He was mentally ill, though at times he seemed sane and rationalised his own behaviour.

Our society does not seem to recognise gradients of mental illness - when someone is crazy, we expect that person to be wild-eyed, drooling at the mouth, and never in control of his faculties. But there are insane people who can frequently appear to be functioning, sane human beings, even though deep down, at a fundamental level, they are beyond sanity: Dahmer, in my view, was one of these people." (pp139-40)

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Ressler's analysis of Dahmer was considered at Dahmer's trial, alongside the evidence of the psychiatrists who evaluated him.

Unfortunately, in his opinion, it proved insufficient to sway the jury, whom Ressler assessed as: 'essentially agree[Ing, with the prosecution's argument] that a crazy person must act in a crazy manner, most of the time, or else not be considered truly crazy.’

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With such a judgement already made, the jury then had to find Dahmer guilty of fifteen murders, and he was sent to prison for fifteen life terms, an estimated 936 years.

The real problem is that people like Dahmer present a dilemma for society, which has not evolved proper ways to deal with them. Focussing on notions of right and wrong does not begin to approach the complex reality of what Dahmer did.

In the 1970s when I asked serial killer Edmund Kemper whether he thought his personality and problems were covered in DSM-II, Kemper thought his problem would not be covered until the DSM was in its sixth or seventh edition - which would not be published until well into the next century. (pp140-141)

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At the time that these notes were taken (in May, 2022) the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, (re-published by the American Psychological Association in March, 2022) is in its fifth iteration, DSM-5-TR.

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Link to Part 1

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Robert Ressler and Jeffrey Dahmer, 1992

For more information regarding Dahmer's childhood, please feel free to follow along as I publish my notes from L. Dahmer's 'A Father’s Story' (originally published in 1994).