Coming soon - Get a detailed view of why an account is flagged as spam!
view details

This post has been de-listed

It is no longer included in search results and normal feeds (front page, hot posts, subreddit posts, etc). It remains visible only via the author's post history.

52
Not a prophecy, but a curse ... (spoilers main)
Post Flair (click to view more posts with a particular flair)
Post Body

Further to some interesting discussion elsewhere on this sub about who the valonqar might be, it is interesting to take a step back and look at just what the valonqar prophecy is, and what it might be meant to achieve.

  1. Cersei asks three questions and gets six answers

Maggy tells Cersei that “three questions may you ask”, but that “you will not like my answers.” Cersei then asks three questions. But she gets six answers.

For example, the first question Cersei asks is: "When will I wed the prince?" The answer is “never”. However, Maggy then takes it upon herself to answer a second, unvoiced question: “who will I marry?” The answer is “the king.”

Similarly, the second question Cersei asks is: "I will be queen, though?" The answer is: "Aye. Queen you shall be...”. But then Maggy goes on to answer the next unasked question, something like “how long will I be queen?” The answer, of course, is: " . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

The third question Cersei asks is: "Will the king and I have children?" Here, the answer is interesting. Cersei and the king she marries have no children together, but Cersei doesn’t actually ask that question, so Maggy’s answer is correct given what was asked: "Oh, aye.” Maggy then answers the third unasked question: "how many children will we have?" Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

2. The answers to the questions Cersei actually asks are straightforward and true on their face

“Never”, “Aye”, “Oh. Aye” or no, yes, yes.

3. But answers to the additional questions are not, at least not at first

The answers to the first and third additional questions only made sense in hindsight, but at the time Cersei was “puzzled” by the answer “the king”, and the six-and-ten “made no sense”.

The second , the identify of the YMB, is still an open question. Consistent with the other two answers, though, it will presumably make sense in hindsight, and Cersei will not like it.

In giving these answers, Maggy gave the answers she wanted to give, notwithstanding the questions, and in a manner of her choosing.

4. The valonqar prophecy was not in answer to a question

"The old woman was not done with her”, explains the text. Despite having answered all Cersei’s questions, and some of her own, Maggy goes for an additional information dump:

"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

The ‘answers’ to the questions Cersei asks are straightforward yes or nos, and the answers to the 'bonus' questions appear obvious in hindsight. But as far as we can tell (and that is a big rider), Maggy is not answering a question at all here. She is offering unsolicited information, some of which appears to be unrelated to the questions Cersei asked.

Maggy wanted Cersei to know this stuff and volunteered it. Why?

  1. The valonqar prophecy is at least partially metaphorical

Unlike the answers to the other questions, the valonqar prophecy clearly has metaphorical elements.

Certainly, ‘gold crowns’ could literally mean the children all take a turn wearing a gold crown, but it probably also means their gold hair. There is no way would Cersei have cloaked Joff in an actual gold shroud, so it presumably stands for something else, whether a kingly death (which is what Cersei thinks), or the fact they spend their lives ‘shrouded’ (hidden or veiled) under the Baratheon colours.

Similarly, Cersei is not going to literally drown in tears (unless she goes the way of George Clarence, and is drowned in a vat of wine called 'tears of Highgarden' or something). So it is not certain that she will *literally* be strangled either.

6. The valonqar may be less a prophecy than a curse

ASOIAF isn’t George’s first foray into prophecy.

And Seven Times Never Kill a Man [very mild spoilers] is an intense tale about an expansionist human culture coming into contact with a pacifist alien one, in circumstances where both societies are deeply religious. It has a lot of interesting parallels for ASoiaF, and especially for the children of the forest and the Weirwood, but it also suggests that, in George’s mind at least, prophecy can be about not just predicting the future, but shaping it, by driving people toward doing certain things in the future, whether in an attempt to bring the prophecy about, or to avoid it. The story also involves a lesson about reinterpreting prophecies to fit facts as they emerge, sometimes several times, so you think it was obvious what it meant, even if it wasn't. Which is what we do while reading this stuff.

It got me thinking. Malara asks Maggy what her future holds, and particularly whether she will marry Jaime, and is effectively told no, she will shortly die. That turns out to be true. But it is asking what her future holds that leads to her death - likely, had she not asked, and hence had there been no prophecy about her death, she wouldn’t have died. Probably. Granted, Cersei may have killed her anyway, to keep her fortune telling silent. Who knows. But if Malara had not visited Maggy, or heard her words, then chances are she would not be dead.

I will be surprised if it turns out any differently for Cersei.

7. What does this mean?

Most likely, whoever the valonqar is, and whatever their reasons for killing Cersei, it will tie back to actions that Cersei takes because of or as a result of her visit to Maggy, and her knowledge of the prophecy. We will be left to ponder whether Maggy merely saw the future, or shaped it.

(Edited because I stuffed a heading - Cersei got six answers, not three...)

Author
Account Strength
100%
Account Age
5 years
Verified Email
Yes
Verified Flair
No
Total Karma
104,811
Link Karma
2,029
Comment Karma
95,802
Profile updated: 6 days ago
Posts updated: 7 months ago

Subreddit

Post Details

We try to extract some basic information from the post title. This is not always successful or accurate, please use your best judgement and compare these values to the post title and body for confirmation.
Posted
4 years ago