Idk man....I think American men are in a cultural moment of realizing that the half-ass behavior of the past isn't good enough and it's time for them to step up.

I don't have any problem with kicking fellow men in the ass if they deserve it.

I mean, I'm tired of my partner having such shitty experiences in the lifestyle that we sometimes just want to quit swinging and stick to separate solo play.

But you seem to agree with my observations, just not the browbeating, so let's seek common ground...

If we agree that men need to step their game up, what would you change about the current discourse?

Agreed. Hopefully I can articulate this without getting into controversial territory, but American men seem to be struggling to figure out how to embrace masculinity without toxic masculinity.

Things like....elevate yourself without diminishing others, be confident without being arrogant or pushy, know that you yourself have intrinsic worth that is so much more than your income/dick size, be capable of healthy feelings, be capable of healthy communication, reject unhealthy aspects of your past, accept that looking good isn't about gender or sexuality, embrace your own sexual pleasures without judging others...

Honestly, swingers have already learned to reject toxic mindsets about monogamy, so learning to reject toxic aspects of personhood should be possible too.

I'll consider that in discussions, thank you for your perspective on it.

To be clear...I don't try to beat other men down myself, I just don't shy away from telling the hard truth either.

And unfortunately my reality is not as sunny as yours. :(

I can’t believe the difference spending just 30 minutes on myself getting put together and showered did for my appearance. It’s night and day. I even wear makeup occasionally 🤷🏼‍♂️. Total game changer.

Bruh…. You are acting all defensive for literally no reason. It makes you look wrong even when the spirit of your argument I actually agree with.

I won't generally be responding to differences in anecdotal experience, I think it's sufficient that the things I'm saying here are also echoed by many other people in this sub as problems for guys.

And yes, they are more common with men.

Only times we've had this issue is when drug use is involved. But that may also be because we typically play with younger couples.

I've seen ED in older men and younger men alike, but yes...if you play with mostly younger couples you won't see this as much.

Trust me, it's a problem.

I've never insisted that a woman that I barely know give me oral. Nor has this ever been a thing expected of my wife.

I mean...I've seen guys at parties that can't even get hard trying to shove limp dicks in women's mouths and simultaneously not volunteering to eat her out, so yeah...I stand by this one.

Do you think that you've seen this twice because of confirmation bias, or reality?

I've seen this much more than twice and it isn't confirmation bias. While bias is always present, I don't think you have any basis for suggesting that and I don't appreciate it.

Confirmation bias assumes that I'm expecting to see it, I didn't even realize it was a problem until I saw it.

I've seen men push their wife to do DP in a group setting because "she'll like it once she tries it" after she said no. In the most recent instance, the same husband kept pushing even after being rebuffed...men are pushy, husbands included.

I'm not saying it's the most prevalent problem, but it is a problem and there is a gender divide in who is doing it in my experience.

I respect that and frankly...I try to be cautious because anecdotes are like assholes.

I do think that everything I said is backed up by others in this sub telling stories about similar events at a much higher rate of male bad actors than female bad actors....but that particular thought might indeed be confirmation bias talking there. :)