OG POST IN R-Feminism

OG POST IN R-Vegan

The post was basically an article saying Feminists should embrace veganism because they should know how being exploited and being used without consent is bad etc.
Feminists from that sub are arguing how this is dehumanising while vegans are arguing that this same kind of argument was made when racism and feminism started out and people of color and women weren't given the same value as white men, and how vegans are putting an end to specieism since humans do not need to exploit animals to live. Vegans argue that it is disappointing how feminists of all people are throwing the same "carnist" mental gymnastics based arguments that other carnists make.

r-vegan has stated multiple times that the majority of that sub is "women" so it's disappointing that women form r-feminism are using the same carnist arguments.

Feminists are being downvoted on r-vegan and vegans are being downvoted on r-feminism

Highlights Under the vegan Sub:

‘I’m a feminist because I think all people are equal. I’m not a feminist because I think all species are equal’ pretty much verbatim what someone said on the feminist subreddit lmao🤦🏾. This was the general sentiment in the comment section and they were really doing ALOT of carnist mental gymnastics as to why it’s disrespectful to compare the struggles of women and the exploitation of female animals bodies. It’s always so funny to see progressives suddenly become conservatives when it comes to discussing animal liberation. They genuinely can’t find it in them to extend any type of empathy for a non human species that isn’t thier pet or in the wild. Truly sickening.

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I've got many friend who are feminist and left wing activists who just don't give a fuck about veganism, it's crazy to me but I think they just don't care if the victim of oppression is not human

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Yes because you have to be strong to be vegan- i am proudly both!

A nonvegan feminist said the following and that expanded into a long argument about why shouldn't it be compared? what is fundamentally different about it?

Don't compare human female exploitation to breeding animals

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Some downvoted comments with comments like these;

this is reaching in so many ways that is actually non sense and pretty much stupid

Were met with responses like these;

Aww, uncomfortable eh? It’s sexual exploitation. Deal with your feelings.

[Are you gonna actually make an intelligent counterargument or are you just going to go "nuh uh!" like a child?

Edit: I see you're just gonna downvote and still not make an intelligent response. Have the day you deserve.](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/1abgv3p/comment/kjnrpqn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

A response like this;

Alright, I just check myself out from this sub.

Was met with;

Running from being uncomfortable with truth? Typical.

You didn't need to leave a notice, sweetheart.

Do that, you won’t be missed

Byeeeeeee

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Highlights Under the Feminism Sub: (The post has 0 upvotes and over 75 comments as of typing this, this conversation is going on in real time so there will probably be more drama after this post is done)

I’m just here for all the speciesism comments 🍿

A feminist on this sub said this,

[The crux of these arguments is always conflating women's bodies with those of animals, which just reeks of misogyny. It's very common in PETA advertisements and the like.

Animal welfare in general is important, but it has nothing to do with feminism.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjnnvhj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Where a Vegan replied;

I don't agree with the argument that animal liberation relates to feminism because some animals who are oppressed are female. Feminism isn't about only that.

[But there definitely is a relationship between the arguments for bodily autonomy used by feminism, as well as queer people, and the same arguments being applied to animals.

Also, I don't know if that's exactly what you meant (sorry if I'm miscomprehending), but a lot of people say that "comparing the oppression a group of people face to the oppression of animals is bigoted against that group of people" but people only feel like that exactly because animals are so oppressed, people only feel uncomfortable when someone compares the oppression of women, queer people, ethnic minorities, etc to animals because animals are so much oppressed by us that we lose our empathy towards them.

As a trans person, when I compare the oppression I face to the oppression of animals* I'm not diminishing trans people as if I though we should be treated like animals, I'm elevating animals to the position of respect they deserve.

*As if animals didn't have it much worse.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjo8npn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Another:

[Typical.

Women are easier to guilt-trip than men, so you'll only ever see this kind of posts in feminist spaces. No one goes to men's rights spaces to tell them that if you're a men's rights activist, you should be vegan.

I'm tired of ecology activists targeting women. Stop guilt-tripping women and post this stuff in gender-neutral spaces.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjnlc3v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

response: Maybe - just maybe - that's because those spaces are actually filled with right-wingers who won't be easily convinced by arguments of empathy towards an oppressed group. Sorry if you feel guilt-tripped, but it's completely undeniable how horribly oppressed animals are.

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Another back and forth went like this:

Comment:

[I’m a feminist because I think all people are equal. I’m not a feminist because I think all life is equal.

This article makes a bunch of tortured comparisons between animal production and misogyny. For example, it points out that the dairy industry takes female cow autonomy away via r*pe—but I view those things as evil in humans because we all agree that consent is required. We can all think about sex and understand we wouldn’t want it forced upon us. Cows don’t have that foresight nor do they have a concept of consent in the wild or anywhere else. Consent is a human construct (an important one) and projecting human concepts onto other species isn’t necessary valid or useful to that species.

Saying “environmental justice” effects women more than men is also a dubious claim with no support. Yes, environmental issues generally impact “marginalized groups” more than non-marginalized groups, but I think you’d be hard pressed to specifically show women are effected more than men due job distribution and the normalcy of heterosexual pairing.

I think a moral person is feminist. I think you could make an argument that the most moral choice is vegetarianism (veganism might be more of a debate due to some of the cultural and logistical considerations). But one ≠ the other and pretending they do is just a manipulation.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjnhpgh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Response:

[Yes, "consent" is a human construct because we've named it using our spoken language and psychological definitions of why and how this is a necessary objective. Just because animals aren't able to communicate it in our language to give us that information doesn't make it less true. They have their own "construct" about "consent." It is a heat-cycle. When an animal goes into heat it's called Estrus, and during that period is when the female animal is receptive to mating. In the wild there's a certain period at the beginning of Estrus that she's just "getting ready" to accept males - but is not yet. During this period the males come around anyway and try to mate with her. But instead she beats them up - her "language" of telling them, "No." However, next during Estrus comes a short period when she is accepting males to mate with. Yet she still chooses which ones. However, again - the males in the meanwhile think that's it's their decision. So they fight among themselves about it. For deer this is called the Rutting season. The male deer look like they are killing each other. Again - they believe the winner of the fight gets to mate with the female they're fighting over. But it's the female who ultimately decides.

All animals have this period of time when the female knows when she's ready to mate - depending on when that species' Estrus begins.

For cats it's about every 3 months. For dogs it's about every 6 months. For cows it's about every 18 - 24 days.

Every female animal has this specific period of time of Estrus. I guess female human animals could compare our Ovulation period to it. And since humans speak a language using words - we call it "consent," but other animals have no such word they use between themselves, yet they still communicate the same thing.

Source: I'm an animal expert.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjo5e12/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

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Another "argument":
Comment:
No surprise that this kind of brain drivel would come from a western feminist. The reason I pick out the West is because there are so many pro-meat religions just absolutely brain washing you.
Response:
I’m pretty anti religion. Religion raped me, thanks.

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Another one where Vegan (who gets downvoted) states their side and says they don't "care for" feminists who are okay with exploitation of Animals:

[You're going to hear a lot of people talk about how they get "ethically murdered animals" from a local farm and how soooo many people have health issues where not eating meat or dairy will literally kill them in a week who then refuse to take supplements.

I personally don't care for feminists who are okay with exploiting animals for their own benefit when there are so many alternatives available. I don't think people can call themselves ethical and support the tremendous amount of pain and suffering of animals and workers in the dairy and meat industries.

I can understand that being vegan immediately can be tough. I personally still struggle at times because a lot of places around me don't offer any vegan options whatsoever, and it's tiring to have to prepare your own food all the time. But so far I've made it work somehow. It's nice to be able to sleep knowing i haven't unnecessarily contributed to the rape and murder of hundreds and thousands of animals over the years.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjnpcka/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

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Vegan met with snark:

[Least dramatic and self-righteous vegan: No, but seriously. Get off your high horse. Veganism is not a practical decision for most people right now. It's expensive, time-consuming, and dependent upon a market with seriously limited resources. On top of that, most people (in America) are a paycheck or two from starvation. We will eat whatever keeps us alive, thank you.

Your reply, much like the original post, is too full of self-important virtue signaling to realistically change anyone's mind.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1abh2hc/comment/kjnt07z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

Another Vegans responded with Sarcasm:

"Wow, you're against the systemic enslavement, rape and murder of innocent creatures, how self-righteous of you"