Author: Neo-Rio
Subject: Sexual Negotiation

This topic has been on my mind a bit due to a few threads back, some recent experiences, and some old stuff that I learnt a long time ago that has become part of my personality but haven't really articulated much. This is a deeper discussion on SOIs and related methods.

Essentially on the past few threads, we've been discussing whether kiss-closes are worth anything, and how to avoid situations whereby things are going great right until the point where the woman flakes -- and how to avoid this. We also discussed how the typical "mainstream" commercial PU material concentrates on simply getting attention from women, but not sex, by simply feeding attention whores -- and how that is generally counter-productive to getting LAID.

Essentially these issues all come down to SEXUAL NEGOTIATION. That is, without setting expectations and discussing sexual relationships with the woman BEFORE any moves are made, your pick-up is likely to tank.

It should be hardly groundbreaking, that talking about sex/relationships with women should be the first AND ONLY thing we talk to girls about whom we want to suggest sex with! ... but oftentimes, we forget to do this, we lose focus, we start enjoying the girl being around us too much, and then nothing concrete comes from the interaction. We end up feeding her ego, maybe getting some awkward kino, and nothing more because of the a flake.

I mean, think about it. Most guys who don't know what they are doing gingerly wander through a predictable wishy-washy process with women. You go talk to them, try and attract them with a bunch of completely random "routines", then get their number. Then if you are lucky and they don't flake on you this far, you bait them with a free dinner to get a date. Then you have some random meandering discussion, then another date, more random dialog , followed by some vague expectation of sex.... and that is not even a given! Oftentimes you're given a kiss goodnight and nothing more.
From a numbers perspective this CAN work, but it is not as accurate as it could be because you leave out a very important aspect of gaming women... and that is, the sexual negotiation.

We are all familiar with the "sexual negotiation", even though we've never called it this. We're aware of it by different guises. We've all met girl who "wouldn't have sex before a relationship", or who wanted to "wait for marriage" before having sex, or girls who were scared of threesomes, or who are adverse to being a prostitute or doing porn, etc. etc.

In all cases, the issue at hand is one of SECURITY FOR THE WOMAN. Security is of prime importance for women. Typically only women with HIGH self-confidence are not going to need any kind of sexual negotiation with you. You can just proceed without talking to them about sex, and because the chemistry is there, you may find yourself with zero-resistance all the way to the bedroom as long as you set things up to go this way.
However, they seem to be an exception to the rule. Most girls are NOT self-validating (club girls anyone?) and most have legitimate security issues, misunderstandings about relationships, etc. and are going to want to do their due diligence on you to discover whether you are the sort of man they would enjoy fucking, or if you're some kind of crazed psycho.

In any "relationship" there is some kind of negotiation. Women want to know what to expect from you. They want to know if you're good at sex, and interested in helping them get off. They also want to know if there's anything particularly bad or negative about you. In essence, they can't reach a personal decision for CONSENT if they are unsure of what you are selling. They HAVE met guys in the past that told them any old bullshit just to get into their pants. You have to assume that certain women ARE on their guard for bullshit.

First, I want to state that WITHOUT a sexual negotiation, you will experience problems with the women.
(a) They will be unsure of your interest in them sexually.
(b) The sexual tension will rise without any release, resulting in a snap of the tension and flaking.
(c) You will not be able to turn them on with the anticipation of what you are offering.

Now, thinking back to vast tracts of my own experience, I typically find that in most cases I got laid when a discussion about sex/relationships took place. Not so much a heart-to-heart discussion as opposed to an open catalog to what the woman can expect of me, by setting expectations, and answering questions. Then I would also ask the woman exactly what she expected, if she had any kinks, and what she wanted in her relationships with men.
Most guys, even if they get as far as having these conversations with women, generally have NO FUCKING IDEA just how backwards and immature their ideas about relationships are (I'm talking to all the monogamous, misogynsts out there) desires from women completely conflict with what women find palatable. Hence no deal.

Then again, situations when the sexual negotiation HAS taken place and reached agreement, women have generally been down to fuck... be that in a marriage contract or a business contract for a porn shoot. The boundaries have been sorted out beforehand!

The interesting thing is, that by having a solid understanding of how to manage relationships is enough to gives women the feeling of security they want, especially so if you convey integrity, honesty, and congruence in your dealings.
Follow that up with a candid discussion of what the woman likes and wants sexually, and you will start cranking her sexual starter-motor as she thinks back and relives her past sexual experiences. By the end of this, you should have one willing and active sex partner!

Author: Neo-Rio

Some interesting posts amongst the bunch here.

I hope to produce a good list of topics for us to use. A bit of a resource for this particular stage in the game. First I want to lay out some basic ground rules. Of course, no list will ever be the 100% true, tried and tested method, because just as all women are different and have different ideas/needs, etc. so do each of us! That it why it is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that each of you guys KNOW exactly what you WANT and what you know you can PROVIDE in both sex/relationships, and keep it 100% HONEST with the woman you are dealing with.

This is SO important, because when you are faced with a conflicting opinion from a woman during the sexual negotiation, you can HOLD FIRM to your core desires and confidently tell the woman "NO" when it is absolutely necessary, and stick to that position. You also have to be preapred to let the pick-up fail if the girl is hating on you and forcing it to fail, and you can't get her to see your point of view and change her mind. Done like this, assuming it fails, that leaves you in a POWERFUL position to NEXT her if it comes to that. You will never post on the forums again asking "why didn't it work out with this one girl?" and beat yourself up over it. Instead you will KNOW what went wrong, and more importantly it will not bother you because you are enlightened enough to FULLY KNOW YOURSELF and PUT YOURSELF FIRST!

For example. Some guys are into BDSM (such as Maniac High, who loves this), but I am NOT. I do not feel the need to screen for a woman who is into being tied up because it doesn't interest me much. With different women, the conversation would go differently and you may find the conversation going all over the map. You may not even need to ask all the questions. Again, this is an ART not a science. A list of pertinent questions will incorporate things that are important to you, so you should cherry pick, and make your own up as well. Having EXPERIENCE will certainly give you reasoned confidence with your own frame, and this grows exponentially over time. Take me for example. I've had a lot of experience of which to draw from when women ask me about my sex life. When I can confidently tell her that I see 5 different women over most days of the week -- I AM NOT LYING. This is why, even if you lack experience, you need to keep things honest otherwise you'll be called out on it. Simply having a solid understanding of relationships (as we often talk about on this board) will be enough to be a booster rocket for your sex life. You'll be miles ahead of AFC guys who have no experience, confidence, or idea about how relationships actually function, so at the very minimum you wont say anything grossly STUPID.

I think most of us can come up with a fairly good list of topics that we can cherry pick from to incorporate.

As you guys stated: The assumtion is at the beginning, is that we are INTERESTED in the girl, and INTERESTED in having sex with the girl. This gets automatically conveyed to her simply by our choice of questions. Saying something like "Have you ever fucked on a plane before?" will automatically suggest to the girl that you've fucked on a plane before. If you haven't fucked on a plane before and you fail to ask this from a humbled and curious point of view, and instead you ask the question from a non-serious joking point of view, then you are going to look like an asshole who is overstepping his boundaries. Instead of conveying interest in the girl, it's going to appear that you are being immature and dicking about with her. DON'T do that! Again, DON'T LIE. Keep things as 100% honest as you can and SHOW INTEREST in the girl by feeling your way around with the questions.

Always remember, that just like with sales, OBJECTIONS ARE A REQUEST FOR MORE INFORMATION. If a woman tells you that you're "terrible" for having several girlfriends, then you need to explain to her how that functions and why that works for you and you find it superior to being monogamous -- without judging her for her opinion. If you can't convince her and she won't play along, that's a valid NEXT -- but if she starts to understand your point of view, then you are still in the game!

Some Stages in the enture process:-

* Show interest
-- Convey that you find her attractive. Make initial unsaid assumptions that you're talking to her for that reason only.
* Relationships
-- Set a basic framework for how relationships function in your life and find if she can fit into that
* Sex
-- Find out what her sexual kinks are, level of experience, level of previous satisfaction, all of which makes her turn herself on all by herself

I think we can all get together and pad these sections out with useful topics to discuss, and some of the possible responses and methods of handling each of them. Also, we need a few segueway questions which seamlessly bridge the gap. I have a few that I have used in the past in mind.
I will put this together in another post. This one is long enough already.

Author: Neo-Rio

OK, now to break things down into an overall plan, from meet to sex talk and all the transitions in between.
I'm trying to put together a BASIC framework from my own experience, and other bits and bobs from Maniac's old plan. The problem with Maniac's plan is that it is too broad and contains a lot of flufftalk. I want to narrow this down to something short and effective.

Again, I only want the basics, because essentially you shouldn't have to remember very much in field, and nor should this go on very long IRL... other than you need to have the relationships/sex discussion in order to progress and make lays more solid. Even without a plan or pre-thoughtout topics you need to make those conversations happen... or else!

* INTEREST

- "Hey sexy!" - I have mastered this ability to call women sexy, gorgeous, beautiful instead of their real name. Truth is I forget names often unless we end up banging. Took a while to get the skill down because most guys don't do this. Nearly every woman appreciates it.

- "Wow, I really like your (some part of outfit, energy, style)" It is simply key to establish some basic flirting, but NOT TOO MUCH. Once is enough in passing. Going overboard in this department works against you.

- Non verbal flirting, body language - at this stage it's too early for kino, so flirting has to carry on visually. Winking, blowing kisses, raising eyebrows, tongue-in-cheek, are all great. (If you're feeling extra cheeky, you can start flicking your own man nipples, rolling your eyes back, and faking going into an orgasm for laughs... although this works better in a club environment where people are being silly anyway.)

- "Are you looking to meet a man here tonight?" if no "Oh, you must have a lover already!" if no to that "Oh come on, someone like you must have a guy somewhere!"... works better in a social gathering.

- TRANSITION - "So what do you think? If we hooked up how much fun would we have? We should get to know each other" ... or something to that effect. You can put your arm out promenade style and see if your inital interest has been picked up on and if there is much chemistry or not. This leads into the relationship section...

* RELATIONSHIPS
Note that I say all this rather DEADPAN as if I was talking about the weather.
At this stage, DO NOT BRAG! DO NOT TRY TO IMPRESS! DO NOT LET HER ANSWERS THROW YOUR STATE OFF.
Just state things matter of factly. Oftentimes I will avoid eye contact and attempt to remember and recall my past experiences. All the following are true...

- "Can I ask you something? Are you always honest with your partners? Personally, I think it's really important for men and women to communicate honestly so we can both learn exactly what makes each other feel good about ourselves together. What do you think?" ... a set up for encouraging honest conversation, which will hopefully get her to open up about herself.

- "Do you still have relationship problems with men? I simply don't have relationship problems. Probably out of all the other men I've met, I'm the only one who seems to have no fights or breakups" ... distance yourself from other men, her past relationships. Create curiosity.

- "I don't break up with girls. They're all still my friends. We still keep in touch and think of each other fondly, even though they're seeing other guys at the moment" ... social-proof building, objection handling.

- "You know, I bet you're so popular with men, that you have many admirers. Yes, I have many girlfriends. Some girls I see often, others, well, I'm not sure what sort of relationship you'd call it! They see me very rarely!" ... create intrigue. Let the woman know that you have fuck buddy relationships.