I don't think that was the case with this guy though. He couldn't figure out why nobody wanted to date him, and assumed he was ugly, instead of being aware of what his body language and personality/aura (for lack of a better word) were putting out there.

I (as a woman) have no problem approaching a man who I find attractive. However, I'm not going to approach him if there is zero sign that he is interested in me. If we're talking and he's leaning closer to me, smiling, making a lot of eye contact, asking me personal (but non intrusive) questions, following up on my answers with questions & comments that show he's listening and interesting, then I'm going to read that as at least the possibility of romantic interest.

But if he's cool, doesn't smile much, doesn't lean in, has a more business-like attitude, then I will assume that he's not interested and I won't ask, because I've certainly had plenty of instances of my life where I'm just...trying to be a human getting through the day and assumed my basic existence in the same space at them was a sign that I was DTF.

It sounds more to me that OOP's basic attitude was standoffish because he'd already made the decision that he was ugly and nobody would ever like him and that those around him read that attitude as him not liking them.

You reminded me, I knew this lovely guy, absolutely adorable, interesting, lots of great hobbies, total sweetie. Had no luck with women. I met him at Burning Man (friend of a friend) and he basically asked if we'd help him with his game. We said yes and ooooooh it was funny and sad at the same time.

We watched a number of women approach him and flirt and he just...totally missed it. They went from totally into each other to the woman being dismayed that he didn't seem to notice any signals like if she laughed and casually leaned in and touched his arm, he wouldn't reciprocate back with touching or moving closer to her or anything. Just did NOT get it. The last one was a woman who had a broken bike. Dude was actually very good at bike repair. She initially stopped at our camp to rest before continuing on walking her bike back to her camp. They got to chatting and eventually she mentioned the broken bike. He said "I can fix it, let me go get my tools out of my tent". She follows him to his tent and he unzips it and goes in enough to look for the tools. She says "Or we could go in your tent awhile" and he said "Naw, I'll find the tool in a second". She says "Even so, we could go in your tent awhile and hang out" and he says "no, it's hotter in there, we should keep hanging out outside".

She takes this as a rejection, he fixes her bike, she leaves very glum. After she leaves, he wanders over and says "See? I thought she was really interested in me and I really liked her, but then she just left" and we were like, "Buuuuuuddy, when she asked if you wanted to hang out with her in your tent, she wanted to hang out with you ALONE. It was ALL THERE right in front of you." His eyes got round and watched him think back over the whole interaction, saying "oh....oooh....OH. Crap".

So we spent the rest of the day doing a bunch of little exercises we made up on reading body language and how people say what they say until he understood Flirting 101. We also went over things like enthusiastic consent and when it's a good idea to directly ask if someone does/doesn't want something, but that didn't seem like it would ever be an issue for him, since he would take anything short of "I would like to have relations with you, good sir" as a "no".

Oh that's really interesting. I haven't spent much time in incel circles (not throwing shade that you do), and was unaware that kissless virgin meant anything other than him saying that he hasn't even been kissed, much less more than that.

If that's the case, I'm glad he was reaching out past that echo chamber and I hope he kept doing so, regardless of the outcome of his date.

I disagree. Sometimes it doesn't help, but other times a person is a healthy individual who will only see positive results from surgeries targeted on a specific feature.

I think the best example of this is breast reduction surgery, breast evening surgery and sometimes breast reconstruction surgery (when one breast is an entire cup size different from the other). I know quite a few women who have had one of those surgeries and even when the reduction was entirely cosmetic (vs being partially because of back pain), they were fabulously happy with the results and felt no other need for additional surgery.

My cousin had a breast enhancement after her third child. She was a fairly tall woman, broad shouldered, fairly solid and happy with her body, other than her breasts, which were originally As, when to DDDs when she had her twins, and then dropped down to sub-A after breastfeeding. She frequently had people assume she was a breast cancer survivor because of her total lack of breasts, which stood out in extra contrast to her overall build. So she went and got Cs and was delighted. No further surgeries, just happy that her clothing fit better and people didn't ask her about when she recovered from breast cancer.

It really depends on the individual and it's unkind to assume someone getting corrective surgery targeting a specific body part has self esteem issues or will become addicted to surgery.

I'm not autistic but I am pretty direct myself. I'm kinda too lazy to be indirect, if that makes sense. I'd rather say "I think I like you, want to get to know each other?" and not beat around the bush wondering and wasting energy on someone who actually isn't interested in me.

I would like to believe it is becoming more and more common for people to do that vs an elaborate flirtation dance. I mean, anybody who *wants* to do the elaborate flirtation dance is obviously welcome to it. I used to think it was fun. I'm just too tired for it now. : )

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think I would have to emotional fortitude to deal with all the hate that it would probably generate, especially since I wouldn't make any promises in relation to results, since it does all come down to consent and you know, finding people who are interested in a relationship/interested in you.

I'm also now in my mid 40s and while I'm still attractive, I know enough about the incel mindset to know that I'm well past the age when anything I have to say would be considered valuable or interesting to them.